Organizing

Sup. I'm Soak, I know farm shit. I can draw and write. I can't code. Let's get this ball rollin'.

And I'm the guy who said he's confident in writing and character making.

I saw you guys talking about this in /vg/, and I'm told I'm pretty good at making characters, (Mostly of the cute variety, but I'm sure I could branch out a bit) so I'd like to help if I can.

Although I'm a roleplayer, not a writer, in case that's a sticking point.

Well, as I see it, their will be RPG elements to the game? So, that should be a plus.

Heya both of you.

I'm an avid tabletop gamer myself, /tg/ multiclassing in /vg/, mostly.

I don't have a vision of the game per se, all I know is I want to make something HM inspired which is better than all the games Natsume is putting out right now. IMO the current standard is fairly low, but getting to the point of being able to reach it is the true challenge in this endeavor.

As of now, we do concept. Pitch to me your ideal HM's.

I want to play an HM game that is basically BtN/FoMT with a shitload of bells and whistles. The newer games all seen to absolutely suck at 'pacing' themselves, and either add or take away too much from the design mix. Days go by too slow/fast, money is hard/too easy to get, etc. BtN was the perfect blend of these basic elements, for me.

Basically, I'd like BtN with MM/Animal Parade sensibilities. That is to say, massive amounts of customization farmways, and lots of options on making money. RPG elements are a definite plus.

I'd throw in my revamp of the crop/livestock growth and management system of course, I always felt that the stick it in the ground wait for it to grow deal could easily be improved upon.

soak314 wrote:Heya both of you.

I'm an avid tabletop gamer myself, /tg/ multiclassing in /vg/, mostly.

I don't have a vision of the game per se, all I know is I want to make something HM inspired which is better than all the games Natsume is putting out right now. IMO the current standard is fairly low, but getting to the point of being able to reach it is the true challenge in this endeavor.

As of now, we do concept. Pitch to me your ideal HM's.

I want to play an HM game that is basically BtN/FoMT with a shitload of bells and whistles. The newer games all seen to absolutely suck at 'pacing' themselves, and either add or take away too much from the design mix. Days go by too slow/fast, money is hard/too easy to get, etc. BtN was the perfect blend of these basic elements, for me.

Basically, I'd like BtN with MM/Animal Parade sensibilities. That is to say, massive amounts of customization farmways, and lots of options on making money. RPG elements are a definite plus.

I'd throw in my revamp of the crop/livestock growth and management system of course, I always felt that the stick it in the ground wait for it to grow deal could easily be improved upon.

I agree. Animal Parade was my favorite of the games after BTN/FoMT. (Not including the Rune Factory games of course).

The problem is improving the crop growing dealy without making it more annoying. Like how in IoH/SI, where crops had a sun/water mechanic, which made them grow slower or not at all based on how much sun or water they received.

As for myself, I was always more interested in the characters. I'd do all my chores in the morning, and then spend the rest of the day in town interacting with the townsfolk and wooing whatever girl caught my fancy. (Usually Anne)

Haha, I spend most of my time on /tg/, too. I really only usually go to /vg/ for the Stalker threads, but I was browsing along, and went "Holy shit, a HM general".

What really interests me the most is stuff like world development. Character interactions. Harvest Moon games, to me, have always had a "slice of life" feel, and mostly, I want to preserve that feeling.

Lots of options and high degree of customizability would be awesome. Some degree of randomization, of terrain and the like, would be interesting, too, but that's something to discuss to whoever will code this for us.

I'm with raspberry on the love of getting to know your neighbors kind of deal. I also agree that the system of farming should be a bit deeper, but not so much so that it becomes a genuine chore. Which likely means sacrificing some aspects of realism for the sake of game play, natch.

You know what else, I think, would be personally interesting? A hunting mini-game.

Unfortunately, the only thing I can really bring to the table is writing and editing.

Admin wrote:Haha, I spend most of my time on /tg/, too. I really only usually go to /vg/ for the Stalker threads, but I was browsing along, and went "Holy shit, a HM general".

What really interests me the most is stuff like world development. Character interactions. Harvest Moon games, to me, have always had a "slice of life" feel, and mostly, I want to preserve that feeling.

Lots of options and high degree of customizability would be awesome. Some degree of randomization, of terrain and the like, would be interesting, too, but that's something to discuss to whoever will code this for us.

I'm with raspberry on the love of getting to know your neighbors kind of deal. I also agree that the system of farming should be a bit deeper, but not so much so that it becomes a genuine chore. Which likely means sacrificing some aspects of realism for the sake of game play, natch.

You know what else, I think, would be personally interesting? A hunting mini-game.

Unfortunately, the only thing I can really bring to the table is writing and editing.

Hunting could be interesting. Simplified though. Blood and violence could sabotage the charm the series is known for. Although meat animals would also allow more variety in cooking.

Hi guys, I'm the guy who said his English isn't up to snuff, but I could probably write. I'm mostly on /a/ and on /vg/ for GW2 generals.

The suggestion about hunting seems pretty cool, could be fun. I'm all down for more slice-of-life / roleplaying elements.
Another idea I had was to maybe put in a bit more of exploring (like dark forests etc), but I guess, the limitation to a small town would probably make creating the game a lot easier.

Edit: What's everybody's approach on realism? More a realistic setting like BtN or maybe a bit more fairytale inspired?

Crop systems would deal mostly in soil overuse, which was touched lightly on in RF3 and Grand Bazaar. There'd be a baseline level where the crops would grow, nothing less. Any advantages in fertility would be simply that, advantages. Simply put I'd like to encourage plot rotation, taking a page out of RF3's (I think) fertiliser system wherein cut plants may be used to invigorate the soil.

The player gets no penalty for NOT letting fields 'rest', but incurs bonuses for rotating them smartly. It's a sort of positive reinforcement thing, you can do it but it's totes okay if you don't feel like putting in the effort to. Never did like it when I'd eventually overuse the soil in RF, just because I was playing like I usually have for the past 5 years.

Characters, I can easily leave to the two of you. I'm not sure if I can come up with acceptable toons, but I think we are all open to giving it a shot. Gameways, the most interesting characters for me have been in the RF series. They are lively and fun, if a tad overdone in some places. Scenes for EVERYONE is definitely a design philosophy to pursue, even the odd barkeep should get some character development. It's what Fire Emblem does and it makes their games very, very engaging.

We could put hunting in, definitely! We should keep it cartoony and, uh, somehow 'cute' though. Dunno how one would pull that off, honestly

Yeah, I agree. No blood or guts or anything; definitely try to keep an "E" Rating. I do think that meat would be nice to introduce, both as a commodity, and as something that you can use for cooking.

On the topic of cooking, this is, again, something that a coder would need to weigh in on, but what if we made it so "you are what you eat"? Like, in the games, you had a sort of stamina bar; you could only do so much work, you know? But what if eating a good diet gave you more stamina, or allowed you to work just a bit faster?

Also, Soak, I like the fertilizer system idea. No penalties is definitely the way to go, but if you want to grow tomatoes as big as your head, you'll need the right kind of conditions and fertilizers.

Hmm, maybe we could make it so their are different types of the same vegetable/fruit? I.e. a "tomato", the basic tomato, what you get for no extra effort; but you could also, through using proper fertilizer and soil conditions, get "Large tomato", or "juicy tomato", both of which would sell for more?

soak314 wrote:Crop systems would deal mostly in soil overuse, which was touched lightly on in RF3 and Grand Bazaar. There'd be a baseline level where the crops would grow, nothing less. Any advantages in fertility would be simply that, advantages. Simply put I'd like to encourage plot rotation, taking a page out of RF3's (I think) fertiliser system wherein cut plants may be used to invigorate the soil.

The player gets no penalty for NOT letting fields 'rest', but incurs bonuses for rotating them smartly. It's a sort of positive reinforcement thing, you can do it but it's totes okay if you don't feel like putting in the effort to. Never did like it when I'd eventually overuse the soil in RF, just because I was playing like I usually have for the past 5 years.

Characters, I can easily leave to the two of you. I'm not sure if I can come up with acceptable toons, but I think we are all open to giving it a shot. Gameways, the most interesting characters for me have been in the RF series. They are lively and fun, if a tad overdone in some places. Scenes for EVERYONE is definitely a design philosophy to pursue, even the odd barkeep should get some character development. It's what Fire Emblem does and it makes their games very, very engaging.

We could put hunting in, definitely! We should keep it cartoony and, uh, somehow 'cute' though. Dunno how one would pull that off, honestly

Agreed. Are we gonna keep the marriage system? Or go for more of a GB/GBC games + Innocent Life style where there's no marriage?

If so, are we gonna allow same sex marriages, and if so, are we gonna separate FP and LP gains? One of the things that irritate me the most about some games these days is when you're trying to make friends with someone but it pushes you into a romance with them.

Admin wrote:
On the topic of cooking, this is, again, something that a coder would need to weigh in on, but what if we made it so "you are what you eat"? Like, in the games, you had a sort of stamina bar; you could only do so much work, you know? But what if eating a good diet gave you more stamina, or allowed you to work just a bit faster?

I'd be careful here, as I would not want to always think about eating the right stuff so I can play normally, it could get tedious. But maybe like with the fertilizing, you get bonuses when eating the "right" food?

I vote yes on the marriage system. gay marriage, I suppose we could do; I don't have any problem with it, but I am no good at writing gay characters, except for the super flamboyant flamer variety, which would likely be offensive.

[quote="Swissfag"]

Admin wrote:
I'd be careful here, as I would not want to always think about eating the right stuff so I can play normally, it could get tedious. But maybe like with the fertilizing, you get bonuses when eating the "right" food?

Yeah. I don't think anything should give you a penalty, just potential bonuses.

Admin wrote:I vote yes on the marriage system. gay marriage, I suppose we could do; I don't have any problem with it, but I am no good at writing gay characters, except for the super flamboyant flamer variety, which would likely be offensive.

Yeah. I don't think anything should give you a penalty, just potential bonuses.

This is definitely a good model to go with pretty much everything in the game.

Also writing gay characters shouldn't be hard. Just write a regular character, but have them like the opposite sex.

Anyway, it's like 8am here, so I need to get to bed.

Got the forum bookmarked though, so I'll pop in when I can.

RaspberryCommie wrote:

Admin wrote:I vote yes on the marriage system. gay marriage, I suppose we could do; I don't have any problem with it, but I am no good at writing gay characters, except for the super flamboyant flamer variety, which would likely be offensive.

Yeah. I don't think anything should give you a penalty, just potential bonuses.

This is definitely a good model to go with pretty much everything in the game.

Also writing gay characters shouldn't be hard. Just write a regular character, but have them like the opposite sex.

Anyway, it's like 8am here, so I need to get to bed.

Got the forum bookmarked though, so I'll pop in when I can.

True. I think I overthink too much when it comes to trying to write a gay character, and I don't let the character write itself. Hmm. I'll have to work on it.

G'night, man.

Hey Swiss, welcome to the writerfest.

I am totally for the 'no penalties, just bonuses' design philosophy. It's a big load off the more casual gamer, and a huge incentive for the minmaxer. We could go all Fable and encourage a vegan diet (shit actually works wonders IRL, wouldn't ya know). Maybe just a simple 'well fed' bonus, ala WoW?

We are keeping marriage, it is an HM staple. We can go with same sex, ain't got a prob with that. FP could be separate, but it would be more streamlined to have them as one stat, with romanceables going 'past being friends' into a higher tier of relationship, literally. The way I'd handle 'friendzoning' is to have scripted events that can blatantly switch the direction of your relationship. It should be an obvious player made dialog/action choice, one that lets him further pursue a particular person or drop him/her on the spot, thusly friendzoned.

And yes, in my experience if you want to write a believable gay character, simply write him/her like you would a straight character. That way nobody's offended.

soak314 wrote:Hey Swiss, welcome to the writerfest.

And yes, in my experience if you want to write a believable gay character, simply write him/her like you would a straight character. That way nobody's offended.

Yeah. I'll give it a try. I have a tendency to over think things, it's really my Achilles Heel at times.

So, we should make it so only a few guys are gay/few girls are lesbians? Or do we want to make it where the community is pretty much entirely bisexual?

Actually, I'm against gay/lesbian choices, for two reasons:

1. We do not need to be "policitally correct". (I'm not against samesex marriage, mind you.)
2. It's just another thing that would take away lots of time. I think with projects like this, not aiming too high is preferable. It's more satisfying and motivating to see part of the game finished so you can concentrate on other things.
3. Fleshing out other minor characters like parents of the girls/barkeepers/doctors and especially rivals could give the game a lot more positive response than leaving out gay marriage would create negative response.

I think a small, fleshed out, good game would be preferable to trying to create something with a huge scale, especially as we don't have that much experience.

Swissfag wrote:Actually, I'm against gay/lesbian choices, for two reasons:

1. We do not need to be "policitally correct". (I'm not against samesex marriage, mind you.)
2. It's just another thing that would take away lots of time. I think with projects like this, not aiming too high is preferable. It's more satisfying and motivating to see part of the game finished so you can concentrate on other things.
3. Fleshing out other minor characters like parents of the girls/barkeepers/doctors and especially rivals could give the game a lot more positive response than leaving out gay marriage would create negative response.

I think a small, fleshed out, good game would be preferable to trying to create something with a huge scale, especially as we don't have that much experience.

Good point. And hey, if we can finish a smaller game, and still have the energy to do more, we can handle it piecemeal.

Swissfag wrote:
1. We do not need to be "policitally correct". (I'm not against samesex marriage, mind you.)
2. It's just another thing that would take away lots of time. I think with projects like this, not aiming too high is preferable. It's more satisfying and motivating to see part of the game finished so you can concentrate on other things.
3. Fleshing out other minor characters like parents of the girls/barkeepers/doctors and especially rivals could give the game a lot more positive response than leaving out gay marriage would create negative response.

Valid points. We could indeed just ignore the whole thing and go for straight up no homo, ladies and bachelors split clean in between, girl toon gets the boys, boy toon gets the girls.

And yet again, I could not support the fleshing out of minor characters more. It brings the world straight to life.

We should get this romance stuff out of the way, save it for later, and start dreaming up a town and setting! Small town, max of around 15 people sound good? Can't hook anyone from the AGDG thread, just a bunch of channers being channers. None of you happen to know some coders or artists?

soak314 wrote:

Swissfag wrote:
1. We do not need to be "policitally correct". (I'm not against samesex marriage, mind you.)
2. It's just another thing that would take away lots of time. I think with projects like this, not aiming too high is preferable. It's more satisfying and motivating to see part of the game finished so you can concentrate on other things.
3. Fleshing out other minor characters like parents of the girls/barkeepers/doctors and especially rivals could give the game a lot more positive response than leaving out gay marriage would create negative response.

Valid points. We could indeed just ignore the whole thing and go for straight up no homo, ladies and bachelors split clean in between, girl toon gets the boys, boy toon gets the girls.

And yet again, I could not support the fleshing out of minor characters more. It brings the world straight to life.

We should get this romance stuff out of the way, save it for later, and start dreaming up a town and setting! Small town, max of around 15 people sound good? Can't hook anyone from the AGDG thread, just a bunch of channers being channers. None of you happen to know some coders or artists?

Fifteen sounds like a good number to aim for, and if we end up needing more, we can handle that as it comes.

For character writing, what I really need are archetypal ideas, or a few descriptive words to build off of. "Rival farmer", "Quiet hunter that lives on the outskirts", "obsessive compulsive baker", stuff like that. I have my own ideas, but I would appreciate everyone pitching in their two cents on it, too.

By the way, are cliches desired, acceptable, or should I intentionally strive to minimize the cliches? I also need to know if we're going straight up fantasy (orc bartenders and elf hunters), some fantasy elements (nature spirits), or non-fantasy (everybody is strictly 100% human, except for the animals, which are strictly animals).

Archetypes have the advantage of being immediately relatable, but the side effect of being predictable. Good characters, IMO, are either flawed and thusly more human, or vastly exaggerated paragons of their archetype.

I'd want a woman mayor, middle aged, wise, and totally competent. Chalk it up to my culture, but I prefer a matriarchy, shit goes smoother.

Livestock rearing family who are rough and rowdy, the antithesis crop family who are more laid back and wan.

Grumpy, aged artisan vs lively, talented (arrogant?) young craftsperson for your carpentry and smithing needs.

The very physical and demanding nature of a rural community should be emphasised, most of the townsfolk are up and about at the crack of dawn, and asleep as soon as the sun sets. There's a prevalent zest for the simpler pleasures of life, such as drink, conversation, and social getogethers (festivals!), thusly the majority of our NPC's will be very friendly. The majority will also be content, with some more spirited individuals seeking to leave the farming lifestyle and make it big in the 'real' world.

Whatever happens, everyone should end up interacting or at least acknowledging the existence of everyone else. This is a tiny, tight-knit community where no secret stays as such for so long, and trust is paramount.

...Is my farmboy side showing too much here?

AGRICUTURAL GAME: THE GAME: THE OVERVIEW


PLAYER GOALS

Story Drivan, time organizan, moneymakan, wife plowan.

STORY

You inherit a farm in a small village. It's shit and you are expected to get it up to a profitable state, for the sake of the village economy. Everyone should pitch in on this, concept for setting is best handled as a team.

CHARACTERS I DEEM NECESSARY (BUT YOU CAN TOTES ADD, MORE MAYBE EVEN TAKE A FEW OFF IF YOU'RE CLEVER)


A mayor/authority figure
A blacksmith/tool merchant
A carpenter for farm upgrades
A general goods merchant
A crop based farm merchant
A livestock based farm merchant
A doctor/nurse/shaman/cleric/purveyor of health related services
Some sort of plot device, aka the Harvest Godess, whoever gave you the farm, those quest bosses in RF, again creative people think something up!


TIME ORGANIZAN


This will come naturally to the player as we set growth rates and production values for our goods, stamina and fatigue costs, and daily pacing. It'll be their job and primary focus to:

-Figure out a viable pattern of planting for maximum profit per month
-Establish a good schedule to accomodate their added livestock maintenance
-Discover the best way they might go about spending their limited stamina per day


Money is not the prime resource in HM. Your resources as a player are primarily your Stamina and your Time. The powerberry style system shall be maintained, manifesting as rewards to the player for accomplishing key tasks, much like in BtN. Think of it as an Achievement Get setup, but with some actual benefits. I'll be trying to track down how fast time ticks by in BtN, as well. That for me was the best pacing for HM time in any of their games.



MONEYMAKAN

1. FARMAN - Crops and livestock. Not to brag, but I do love flaunting my BS in Farm Production Systems, so I got dis. Don't worry, I'll run ALL my ideas by everyone and we will NOT implement any of them until a UNANIMOUS vote is reached. I will also wear my big boy panties and take criticism/advice very well, if you see me doing otherwise CALL ME OUT for it. I'm no stranger to this whole team creation thing, and have been part of a couple of devteams before. In my limited experience, I find the "one designer FINISHES something, everyone has his say, he fixes it up until we all stop shouting" deal to work out the best. I will provide the base material for the team to refine.

2. HUNTER GATHERAN - Wild animals are afoot, and the player may CHOOSE to track them down and kill them for their meat, skin, and other bits. Berries and herbs and shit dot the mountain/country/river/beach side, ripe for the picking and selling. ENTIRELY OPTIONAL. Gathered stuff is of course much cheaper than farmed stuff. Honestly if this gets too complex for us, we can ditch hunting and just stick to berry picking (though I'd prefer we keep hunting because it's cool).

There will be no debt.

I want to give players a goal, and it would be a monetary centric one. The 3 year deadline BtN had was a very nice source of drive for me personally, and I'd like to keep that feeling of obligation in our game. Basically the player would have had to have upgraded his structures to a certain level by the end of the timeframe. Having NOTHING upgraded would get you kicked out of town. Subsequent improvements stack upon the final celebratory scene, players with maxed out farmage having the best "ending" sequence. Again positive reinforcement, but this time around with punishment for particularly bad performance to keep things exciting. You can't win in a game that you can't lose, after all.


WIFE PLOWAN

An important element of the design aspect, the player distraction. One track goals, in this case making money via farming, can get pretty tiresome, so we have the secondary objective of social life. NPC's will gain FRIEND POINTS up to a certain max level, and will change their dialogues according to that level's current state. If a character is ROMANCEABLE, the player may raise the bar PAST being a simple FRIEND into being a ROMANTIC INTEREST. This is a whole new bar for the player to fill, and will unlock even more dialogue and scenes for that particular NPC. As such, the player may be friends with whome them prefer via the FRIENDZONE SCENE which will allow them to dictate the direction of that particular romanceable NPC's relationship.

Getting a WAIFU will be a good thing, your spouse will have brand new dialogue options, and a BRAND NEW RELATIONSHIP BAR called the MATRIMONIAL METER (subject to change). Again, you get scenes and dialogues for raising this statistic. Wives also help out by providing delicious stamina boosting meals at noontime (sorta no point for a boost at the end and start of the day). Getting a wife will ultimately allow you to reach your goal of upgrading the heck out of everything by helping make your farm duties just that much smoother.

No fucking (despite the title of the segment).

Children will be dicussed later, they are tricky.


---------


Aaaaaand that's our basic framework right there. It is of utmost importance that a devteam have fresh ideas to work off on, so I will be constantly churning out my design decisions for everyone's perusal. None of them will be final, they will simply act as a basis for people to get their THINK on.

Final notes, this isn't 4chan, opinions are VALUED in the devteam environment. State your mind, ideas are what we work off, there should be no shortage of them.

Final final note: Get some people you know on board! The most important team members are the people who can CODE worth a damn, because without them there simply is NO PROGRESS. I'll be posting on HM fan forums for some bored talent to hopefully hop on our little crew.

That's quite a nice summary Soak, thanks.
Some points I had on my mind while brainstorming:

- As we have an expert in agriculture, we could do a lot with machinery. Like tractors and stuff like that.

- Story elements:
I had two ideas, one would be a rival farmer who builds up his own farm and tries to make it a better/bigger one than yours. He would upgrade it according to a set speed and you should keep up with him. Maybe this could be combined with the "deadline" of upgrading your home. Maybe we could even make this into a main point of the story, as in "the one farm that will prosper the most in the next three years will... become the figurehead of the village/you would become the next mayor/whatever.
Or we could take this even further and say that you share your farmland with your rival and the one who makes most out of it will then become the owner of the farm. This could be interesting, but it could also lead to a lot of problems.

Another Idea I had was to add a small criminal organization trying to disrupt the peace in Agriculture-Town. Like trying to poison the water or the classic robbery. You would then help the village police to help find the criminals and therefore help the village. As a story element I thought this could be easily implemented. Maybe someone from the village is actually part of said organization?

- NPCs: What a bout a butcher? Especially with hunting, which I would more and more like to see, this could be interesting. An archetypical butcher is also pretty easy to write.
And maybe a bank as well as a police officer.

- On waifus:
What I would like to see is a VN like approach with lots of choices on how to deal with the girls. Not just "bring the girl the item she likes every day and she'll fall in love with you".
I'd also like to see: Dates! You should be able to go on dates with your admired one. I guess they would mostly be very dialogue heavy with some minigame in each activity. And of course the usual choices on what to say in different moments. Some girls will want to hear answer A, others B or C.
You should also be able to make suggestions on where to go for the dates, so you have to think about what the girl will like.

But it should not be too complicated. Well made, but not too complicated.